Summit Journal Chat

PBob - - Having experienced first-hand the insular nature of environmental groups (both pro and con) I agree with much of what you posted. I will hold off on highlighting the example I found on the Sierra Club of Canada's site, as I am curious To see if anyone else sees it or something I might have missed.

I guess like partisan politics, the gulf between the poles is where the real stuff is, and the shame is that both side perceive a threat in acknowledging its presence.

Lori and Bruce -

The anti-immigration issue is nothing more than an abbreviation for the elitist criticism that has been leveled at environmentalists since someone first stopped to smell a flower. Problem is, it can be a fair criticism.

Preservationists are going to be suspect if they are the ones sitting on a chair when the music stops. In the struggle for existence, it's asking a bit much of someone to appreciate a sunset when it is their own son they are setting in the ground. Perhaps philanthropic dollars would be better spent on behalf of the environment if they were first given to those having trouble meeting their basic needs. We all want to act to stop the extermination of an irreplaceable resource, species or biome, but until we somehow learn to stem the tide of human suffering, anteing up for the environment is going to look like just another luxury to the many.

The irony is that we only seem to articulate the value of clean water once we have excelled at poisoning the well. And to those in the Third World, cleaning that well looks like one more case of the "have-nots" having to give more to the "haves". That's why any solution to environmental degradation has to be a socio-economic one. No one knowingly sets out to rape nature. It only happens as a bi-product of our drive toward "advancement". When the question becomes "who's advancement?", the environment is certain to come out on the short end of the stick.

Holy Hot Tips Batman - - Lori thanks for the direct!! I just read some stuff on the Sierra Club of Canukistan's site that relates to this story. There is a letter of response regarding the US situation, but go read the policy paper on immagration. I'm curious if you find the same mega-leap of PC logic I did.

I'm not saying that they're wrong...I'm just saying.

Nice try Lori, but we stopped letting your type into the fine republic of Canukistan a while back...You know, normal reasons really, environmental yadda-yadda, free-thinking blah-blah...that sort of stuff.

Seriously, when it comes time to escape let me know, the basement suite is open.

Quite a tale about the SC, I'm going to do some digging up here as well and see if it is happening around here.

Lori, thanks for the info on what's happening in the Sierra Club.

Lori, Bruce, off-topic ? Say it ain't so!

And now, having quickly reestablished another longtime SJC tradition -- being off-topic -- I second Bruce's wish, have a good weekend all...

Bruce, enjoy the laugh...should the W prevail in November, then my husband, the girls & I are moving in with you. (my blood pressure can't handle four more years). Hope that's ok....

Re the Sierra Club, if you google the phrase, "the greening of hate," you'll learn a lot. But here it is in a nutshell. Some environmentalists have been concerned for a long time that as the population of the USA grows, the environment within the borders has degraded. These folks have felt that the Sierra Club should endorse stronger immigration controls. Many in the Club don't feel that way (environmentalists often being bra-burning, tree hugging liberals after all). So the Club has always been officially neutral on the topic.

(Seems odd to me that environmentalists would get riled up over this issue. The real issue is that it's global population we should be worried about. It's the house that's grossly overcrowded. Who cares who's sleeping in what bedroom? )

Well, there are some anti-immigration groups (one might call them hate groups...why yes, in fact, I would call them exactly that, now that I think about it) whose leadership has figured out that for $25 each anyone can join the Sierra Club. So those groups are signing up their members as Sierra Club members, so they can vote for board of directors. The Sierra Club has vast resources and if outside groups, with their own anti-immigration agenda, are large enough, they could in fact vote in their own people as members of the board. That would give this conglomerate of outside groups with a single agenda a majority on the board, and would give them access to all the funds, all the lobbying power, all the everything that Sierra Club has.

So now prominent civil rights advocates are weighing in on the issue as well. There are many outside influences on what usually is a boring little vote for directors, that probably half the time, regular Sierra Club members don't even bother with.

In essence, a hostile take over of Sierra Club. Such an American Idea. John Muir would be so proud.

Here's a good news article about it...probably a little more objective than my version:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0220/p01s04-ussc.html

Well in keeping with a SJC Friday tradition, allow me to post - "have a great weekend everyone!"

Hi Dave - saw your comment on Bruce's post. I've submitted this blog to Google and when I return home I'll insert the code that allows search robots to find us more easily. Hope all is going well.

Greetings from the desert (Phoenix). Looks like everything is going well on the blog :-). Rose, thanks for the mountainzone tidbit. Lori, thankfully I'm glad I missed W. Bruce, I'm glad you're behaving and haven't brought down the blog in my absence. Back in full swing next week.

Rose - I stopped checking in on Mountainzone last year when the content seemed well past its best before date. Too bad, the place had real potential, but when the dot com bubble burst they just couldn't afford to pay writers and photographers anymore. My sense is that Hahn and the others continue to submit there out of contractual agreements with sponsors etc.
I did notice that Dave H had a very good piece a couple of issues ago in Outside. It would be great to see him get working with a great editor, I think he has a ton of good stuff in him.

Hi Everyone,
Has anyone tried Mountain Zone lately? I didn't realize it is still up? I clicked the Climbing tab at the top of the page and found a whole bunch of articles on climbing. Scrolling down the list quite a way I found an article by Dave Hahn talking about the fun he had finding historical relics from three early expeditions of Everest. It seems like a perfect read at this time when we are waiting for perhaps another discovery. :-)

Regards,
Rose

Lori - maybe it's the few latitudial degrees of separation but I found myself laughing at the radio and TV. It was like being inside a live action Simpsons episode. That the leader of the "free...with purchase" world could barely get a piece of the softballs tossed at him was high comedy, appropriately edged with tragedy.

Now then what's all this about the Sierra Club? I'm not familar with the story.

Please don't get me started on mainstream media tonight. All those softly lobbed questions to W tonight had me screaming at the radio (then I got home and turned on the t.v. and yelled at the t.v.)

Speaking of Sierra Club...all you members be sure to vote for Board of Directors (if you're not a Sierra Club member, now's a great time to join). It's really scary that those anti-immigrant groups are trying to actually get a foothold in the Club and use our resources for their own agenda. The deadline is in a few days, so vote online.

Welcome back Ross and everyone.

Yes Ross, welcome. The "computer for Ross collection" starts today! Asceticism can be taken too far you know, but we're glad you are still frequenting libraries and that those who haunt those parts have the good sense to maintain a few computers.

Boulder Bob,

Yeah, right! We should all beg to take classes from you!!

Hi Ross. Hope you can make your way back here.

I was thinking about going out to take a class from Ken.

Anyone know what's happening with Dave Lim right now?

Hi Ross, glad to see you made it!

Hey Ross nice to see ya. Thanks for popping by.

Ken - Very interesting to hear you were involved in the investigation of Goran Kropp's death. I followed that closely, as it happened nearby and a good friend of mine was a friend of his (he climbed Kilimanjaro with Goran the year before his death). Very sad. I believe Goran's death was the first climbing related death at Frenchman Coulee. Now another person died there just last month during a rappel. As the popularity of rock climbing grows, I imagine we will see more and more accidents at these popular climbing areas.

magoo - I have been emailing with Ross and he wants to join us. I have re-invited him so hopefully he will join us here soon.

I have an email address for JayE (Jay Edmonds) that is years old. I will send him an invitation in case the address is still good.

Very interesting site, thanks Magoo.

Hey Ken,

Please give us a report on your climb.

Interesting things happening in Kathmandu these days. Apparently westerners trying to to the mountains are being stopped by the Moaists and are required to pay a fee. The amount is based on the nationality on your passport. Guess who gets to pay the most? :-)

Gee whiz, Ken. I'll say you've come a long way. I remember when you were trying out the climbing wall in a Boulder gym. :-)
Best of luck.

Regards to all,
Rose

CSTerry: I have thought that same thing myself and have voiced it a number of times - http://www.antiwar.com/casualties Thankfully we don't have to rely on mainstream media conglomerates to feed us information.

Simultaneous posts again!! I am obviously typing much faster than I used to!

Magoo, I've seen some great ads by moveon.org. BTW, is it just me or has CNN made a policy decision to stop mentioning the total number of American soldiers killed in Iraq since the commencement of hostilities?

Hi Ken, nice to hear from you.Good luck on your climb. I look forward to a TR. Happy Easter, everyone.

Obviously I was having a little trouble posting yesterday! It's better today.

Yes Ken, stop by more often. I received something from moveon.org regarding the Sierra club - how's it going?

Ken - - Yeah I'd say you've progressed just a bit. Way to go! I'll agree with you about Goran's public speaking, I've never heard the Banff Festival laugh that hard. It was a real loss.

Good luck on Whitney, it sounds like a great day. It's wonderful to know that there are still first ascents to be had.