Summit Journal Chat

Interesting blog entry at: http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/anderson.cooper.360/blog/2006/12/wilderness-survival-rule-of-threes_07.html

I meant no disrespect in asking the questions below. I know they did the best they could.

I don't want to keep coming back to this topic, but, there has been some discussion in the press regarding MapQuest not producing maps across NF-23. I would like to point out that MapQuest does route over NF-23 even when you request to avoid seasonally-closed roads.

I ran the three maps using MapQuest: Roseburg-Gold Beach, Sunny Valley-Gold Beach and Grants Pass-Gold Beach. 

When I ran three maps on 12/2 without selecting advanced options I got one map going over NF-23 - the one with the route between Sunny Valley-Gold Beach.

I ran the same maps today using the advanced options selecting 1) shortest route and 2) avoid seasonally-closed roads. With these options I produced two maps going over NF-23, one for Sunny Valley-Gold Beach and one for Grants Pass-Gold Beach.

My point is that there needs to be much more work on the knowledge data bases used by consumer/public mapping programs - you might think "too much of a good thing" in that we are getting very accurate maps - almost too accurate in that they show these smaller routes (which is incredible that we can see that such roads exist in great detail while we are in transit), but, without any additional knowledge about the environment or other factors that might impact our use of such roads, the maps are no good, or should I say, not very good for us to use in situations such as those of the Kims.

This is bad. I checked my email and I had sent that map of NF-23 on Saturday night as the shortest distance map example.

I wondered why they did not think that before they started out on NF-23. Most people know not to go into the mts without being prepared for emergencies. Those thoughts never kicked in with them. RT 42 is more heavily traveled. I think that everyone was thinking that they would find him alive. The situation was unfolding slowly. I sent a map up there and I wish that I had had the resources to just go up there myself and look where the map had pointed to. They also used MapQuest so they were using the same map that I saw. That route looks like the shortest route between I-5 and Gold Beach. There is no indication on the map about road quality. The guy from the wireless network said that he had a good idea of where to look after he pinged their phone because he had to go over NF-23 before and noticed that allot of people made the same wrong turn that the Kims did.

There's no substitute for local knowledge AND a good map. After a little adventure of my own driving in the Oregon mountains (gas gauge below empty, heavy snow, no cars coming toward me, and driving 45 mph with no one coming up behind me), I was told about a man who was found dead in his car (in the spring) on one of the roads I had travelled. He was about 400 yards away from a work crew, but apparently never ventured out. Maybe if he'd burned his tires?

If you don't know whether or not a road is kept open (plowed) during the winter, it would be a dilemma. Like the other Tim, it would be my nature to set off, probably shortly after getting stuck. This is usually the wrong thing to do, but one factor might be: how quickly would someone notice I was missing? I think the family did remarkably well, especially if they had little outdoor experience--most folks today would be at a complete loss without a functioning cell phone. The father might have died of exposure whether he went out on Day 2 or Day 7.

Very sad news indeed. Tim (not this Tim) and I were talking and we're very adventurous - we love to take the scenic route. What is surprising to us is - wasn't there a moment where the two adults thought - "this might not be the right road? Uhh, this is looking a little dangerous to be taking a 7 mth old on? This road doesn't look like what's on the map, we seem to be going into some bad road and a little far into the backcountry for comfort, I'm only in tennis shoes....", etc., etc.

And he searched in a "superhuman" way for civilization. Tim said he would have lasted about 2 days before he set off to look for help. This guy made it 7 before he set out. Is that good or bad?

Just some thoughts.

Very sad. I don't understand why they weren't searching NF-23 last week. Even I could run a MapQuest search and get that route between I-5 and Gold Beach. There must have been allot of second guessing. I also at first guessed that they would be on NF-23 and then second guessed myself thinking no one would go that way with small children in the car. I thought that they must have gone over on 42, and today they reported that they were to go that way but missed the exit off of I-5. The other thing that concerns me is that the visitor office which gave them directions did not come forward sooner. Seems as if allot got lost in the shuffle.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/12/06/BAKIM06.DTL

Not good news.

they are reporting several articles of clothing found and part of a map
this does not sound good does it?

This just in on CNet:
"Satellite to be rerouted in James Kim search"

It is GeoEye - NOW WE ARE TALKING!!!!!

This is from
http://news.com.com/Searchers+think+they+are+nearing+missing+CNET+editor/2100-1028_3-6141107.html

Warned about dangerous road

The Kims were warned that the Bear Camp Road was dangerous this time of year when they stopped into the Wilsonville Chamber of Commerce about 20 miles south of Portland, Ore., on November 25 around 1:30 p.m. PST, said Logan Crozier, a visitor center representative at the office.

The Kims had used Mapquest to map out a route but wanted a scenic route to the coast, Crozier said Tuesday. The visitor center representative who was working that day gave the Kims a map printed off an unidentified Internet site, he said. "She warned them that by the time they got down there (southern Oregon), it would more than likely be dark, and she cautioned them not to take the route," he added.
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I ran Mapquest several times and was able to get a map going over NF-23 a few days ago and sent it as an example of one of the shortest routes between I-5 and Gold Beach. Other sites were saying that MapQuest doesn't use NF-23, but, that depends on which point you use as a starting point. If you use Roseburg they put you across on 42; if you use Grant's Pass they put you across on 199 and then up on 101. So, most of the nav programs will use NF-23 - I used a point south of Roseburg thinking that they would try to find the shortest route and whalla...

Yes - that is the story.
See http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/04/kati-kim-and-babies-found-james-kim-still-missing/ regarding: Edge Wireless's cell-tower hit model which helped locate the Kims' wireless signals.
Also - http://crave.cnet.com/8301-1_105-9666094-1.html?tag=cnetfd.mt for misc. comments on GPS, nav systems etc.
Very good news today!
Yippie!

GBS: Looks like the found the mom and two kids in Oregon. Is that what you were talking about? Seems they can't find the dad.

Weird story.

BBob, ditto.

Thanks GBS and Bruce - it was a surprise.

Very cool Bbob - I remember Robyn from the early 90s, she really set the stage for the next generation of climbers.

And Pbob, thanks for the early Christmas present - very nice work!

If you get a chance, see if you can find a copy of October's National Geographic Adventure. Tim Cahill has a great piece about risk, and made the same connection to the process of writing as you did.

Meeting those people sounds like a great holiday present for you BBob.

Wow - that sounds like you PBob.

As a small side note, I learned something rather interesting recently by way of a strange set of coincidences. I have spent some time at my folks house in Boulder recently (due to some medical problems that my father is having). I was looking out back where I saw a cat duck under the fence between my folks house and the house where my best friend Bob Hritz use to live (Bob died at 19 in an avalanche while he was returning from an ice climb in rocky Mountian National Park). Seeing the cat go over there made me think of Bob. Anyway, my brother Jimmy (who had recently been beat up real bad by some tresspassers in his yard) & I took my Dad on a walk around the court shared by the houses. When we were almost back we walked past Bob's old house just as Jimmy's girlfirend had caught the cat that I had seen earlier. Well, it had turned out that the cat had been missing for two weeks and lived over a mile away - but, it use to live in Bob's old house and somehow found its way back home and had been living in the wild so to speak. So, just as we walked by Bob's house the owner of the cat (from a mile away) and Jimmy's girlfriend met there to exchange the cat. And then the new owner of the house came out. Well here's the strange stuff. Somehow I mentioned that my friend Bob used to live in the house there (35 years ago now). Well, the cat's owner said he grew up with Bob's bother John whom I haven't seen in 35 years - and he still see's John from time to time. And the new owner of the house and his wife were interested in the histtory of Bob's death and the house because they turned out to be climbers. Of course I began to inquire about what kind of stuff they had done and I had a hard time believing was I was hearing. Well it turns out that the new owners of the house are Robyn Erbesfield and Didier Raboutou (you can find info about them all over the internet). Very strange. By the way, Didier said he does stuff with Jon K.

This is the second time I've put this up. The first time, I went back and edited it out. I'm posting it again because, unless you are Emily Dickinson, writing is nothing without readership. The doubts and insecurities associated with writing anything that comes from the inside of a person are symptomatic of the entire process. (Bruce, ain't so?) In fact, the adventure in that process stems from that scary feeling that one experiences when they don't really know what the outcome is going to be. Though I've never skydived, I imagine it to be somewhat like the feeling that one would get the first time they jump out of a plane. To back away from that "who-a-a!" feeling would mean never leaving the plane at all. I'm talking about a certain amount of reckless abandon that is required to do anything that is truly authentic. Without it, all you have is a reprise of something already proven. (No one in their right mind reprises their mistakes, at least not in public.) In the end, writing is an expression of hope - a hope that your ideas do not exist alone. But rather, that there is an allegiance to them that is apart from yourself. In essence, I suppose that defines the difference between simply being human and being a part of humanity. That said, here is my reverie for Christmas 2006.


FOOTINGS


As a kid, I lived for those occasional summer mornings when I’d wake to the sound of a digger. There was no greater fascination for our neighborhood gang. From high atop the sand piles we’d stare, mesmerized by men who had the clout to create a house. I would grow impatient though, when the setting of cinder block and the pounding of nails had to wait while the footings were poured. I didn’t know then that, without those little concrete sidewalks underneath it all, the whole house could fall down.

Since late August, my sand pile climbing has been sidelined by a foot injury. Until then, I’d always paid sparse attention to my feet. Sporadic toenail clipping might save the cost of new socks but, where I was concerned, it did little for the feet. Evidently, I’m not alone in this regard. The multi-billion dollar shoe industry, where style outpaces function, gives testament to the perceived shortcomings of our feet. Maligned and misunderstood, the lowly foot runs near the back of the pack in the body parts competition.

A month after my surgery, I was camped on my father’s couch while paying him a long overdue visit. Plagued with arthritis, dad is not very good on his feet. Around bedtime, he brought me a pillow and I measured his progress down the hall by the creeping thump and roll of his walker. I was struck, and humbled, by the paradox of an eighty-seven year old man caring for his son. Clint Eastwood said, ‘know your limitations’. During the course of my recovery, I had become painfully aware of mine. But I was even more impressed by the courage that my dad needs to get through his daily routine.

Over the past few months I’ve been treading along a small portion of my father’s path. The loss of mobility that frequently comes with age, or an injury for that matter, can limit our energy, as well as our reach. The careless activities that full function might allow become the death defying acts of the foolhardy. Finally, pain and discomfort can set limits to our imagination and our horizons, as they slowly chip away at the spirit. All of this detriment stands poised against those who, for a short time or a lifetime, must do without good footing.

Through my brief disability, I’ve learned what my father probably already knew. Like so much in life, what seems a hardship is often a gift. The underpinnings of our lives are often invisible and out of mind yet, without them, we’re bound to fall short – and often, with a hard landing. Life’s footings can be found at the ends of our legs, but also in the friends, the family and the loves that life brings with it.

May you dance with your loved ones this Christmas Season and through the New Year!

Taking one step at a time…

- PBob

Too bad about that family missing in Oregon.
Anyone up there from our group?
There is much blog on CNET regarding GPS and various mapping software packages.
My guess is that they would have followed the directions from the Inn and not tried to out guess via a mapping package.
MapQuest and some other packages take people onto forest ranger roads... bad idea.
The shortest route was between Hugo and Gold Beach which has bad roads - according to some of the other posts - they should have gone on 38 which makes me think that something was already wrong by the time they got to Denny's - would you want to go to Denny's if you could go out to the shore for dinner? None of this story makes sense.