Summit Journal Chat

Hi Bruce,
It's a deal. Actually I have some other contacts from the halcyon days of the Mountain Zone forum that help me to keep up with the M&I story. I have heard stories about ENews but my only experience was being blocked from their forum. (We all know what a rabble rouser I am.) Graham Hoyland and Tom Holzel were involved with the ENews expedition. But Graham is over there with a BBC crew, so there seems to be a parting of the ways. I think Holzel still involved but I think only in an advisory capacity. But in any event, the ENews crew- whoever they are- has had good information - at least as good as anyone. The silence from IMG is deafening. I thought they were going to have a northside expedition with Jake Norton leading a group to the North Col, but if they are there they are below the radar screen - no one seems to be covering them. So I don't know if they are over there or not. Both Eric and Jochen seem to have left M&I behind, but with all the aggravation they have have had to put up with from the Brits, I don't blame them. Maybe they wanted to keep a low profile because they would have to put up with a lot of unwelcome attention even if they had abandoned the search in favor of concentrating on the positive experience of their clients. I have heard that Dave Hahn is over there but in what capacity I do not know. Part of me keeps hoping that they are going to do a very quiet, limited search based upon ideas that have developed over the last couple of years, but that is the purest speculation on my part. But certainly Graham Hoyland and ENews will be acting on good information. We'll see if anything turnes up.

But from a pure mountaineering perspective I would think that the Russian expedition trying a new route goihg straight up Everest's North face would be the most fascinating. These are the many of the same group that climbed Lhotes Middle a couple of years back. I have been surprised that with all the complaints about the hordes climbing Everest these days more people aren't trying new or rarely traveled routes.

Regards,
Rose

Rose - thanks for the update. I have been following Mountain Madness. They are planning nights at camp 1 and 2 and moving to 3 by the end of the week before coming down to base for the final rest. Summit push is about 16May for them.

magoo - thanks - but, of course I did not go to the site - I try to follow the rules

Rose if you're willing to monitor the...ahem...action over at Enews for us I know I'd appreciate it. That site is maddening, but if you've found a way to manouvre over there - good on ya! Someday I'll share my Enews stories with y'all, just trust me when say that the Web site is a perfect reflection of the personalities behind it.

Hi Everyone,
It's getting close to the first of May on Everest. Most of the teams have been there a while getting acclimated. At least two teams are said to be searching for Sandy Irvine including ENews who think they know where he is. I guess we are very close to knowing whether they are right or not - it was May 1 when IMG found Mallory. So the teams should be close to getting high enough to search. The latest post by ENews seems to suggest that they will not announce their find immediately. So we may have to wait after all. We'll see.

Have a good weekend everyone.

Best regards,
Rose

Pictures our government doesn't want us to see: http://thememoryhole.org/

Ken: thanks for this link: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/knew/
Fascinating, indeed. It was an interesting and haunting ending - if that was the true ending - a little out of character for Frontline. It was as if nothing more needed to be said because we all know the horrifying outcome of the events of 9/11.

Grover -

My dog, Romey doesn't exactly leap for joy when bath time comes around but she does willingly step into the tub and refrains from shaking through most of the ordeal...the best part being drying off on the living room rug. Might have to think about a shower massage though.

I don't think the canine members of the living kingdom that have already achieved perfection can ever be spoiled. They spend too much time mustering the patience needed for the rest of us.

Bob, do I qualify as a "grab all the resources & run" sort? I just gave Zamboni a super long & hot bath. Ever since we got that hand-held shower massager, she jumps into the tub at bathtime, stretches out under the pulsating stream of water and enjoys it so much that I let the bath go on much longer than a doggie bath should. It seems so decadent.

But Grover, doing the duck and run, makes up for it. Or so I justify it...

Speaking of viable, and environmentally friendly economies, I was wondering what the true inflationary effect of the six figure plus, rape and pillage incomes is on the prospects of the less corporately minded, more environmentally concerned other half? As the gap between the incomes of the "socially and environmentally conscious" sector and the "grab all the resources and run crowd" widens, more and more people are effectively squeezed out of the franchise. Ultimately, this will have a destabilizing effect, which I think makes the case for some sort of limit setting on profits and the amassing of wealth. I know that a rising tide raises all boats, but if your digs are in the belly of the ship, it still feels like you're under water.

Hey Doc,

Had to turn around myself last weekend (at 12,700'). No storm - just too much snow. We are having lots of late storms this year. I was post holing with snowshoes.

Anyway, I enjoyed your SC stuff.

I tried to delete it really I did.

I can assure you that my decision to have kids was purely...mostly...eventually unconscious.

I think we are agreeing on this Lori, and I think that Canukistan leads the States in per capita consumption in many areas.

Not only would they buy two cars, but they would post twice and use up twice as many Blogger resources!

Ah, but some of us make a conscious decision not to have children to offset those who do...

Yes, of course, my dear, you are right (a new Grooooover posts here. A powerful woman unafraid to admit you are right on occassion....cringing as she admits it, but unafraid). But most citizens in most countries are not as greedy as my own, at least, that's what I hear from my European and Asian friends who shake their heads at our disposable economies. (But a friend who has lived in Japan for years says it's the same over there... I don't know. Perhaps ethnocentricity abounds everywhere...). And certainly, there are varying levels of consumerism even within this great land of ours. My homeland, Southern California, uses and disposes at a rate that reviles many (although certainly not all) where I live now, in Seattle...But then again, an REI sale certainly brings out consumers en masse. You can get killed by all those SUVs full of carseats and empty Starbucks cups, jockeying for compact spaces in the parking garage.

I think I was going somewhere with this, but I'm lost...

I think we should all be Canadian...those dog sleds and igloos are soooo eco-friendly.

Yes my powerful pal Groover...It's a whole new Bruce that posts here. :-)

Education and access to healthcare for all genders and ages is an absolute need.

(Bruce disclaimer - - what follows is not contrarian bombast...but really just my curiousity)

But wouldn't lower birthrates lead to an increase in affluence and opportunity? And if so, wouldn't this, as we see in North America, lead to increases in per capita consumption?
This sounds trite, but if a person could suddenly afford a car, or an upgraded home...that would make life easier...this would have to have an effect onn resource usage, right? Or am I missing something.

GBS - I was invited...but somehow I just couldn't spare the time to go.

Bruce is proposing the empowerment of women? This will take a few minutes to sink in....

Wow. I do feel more powerful already.

Historically, it's been proven, as women become more educated (and have access to better prenatal care contraception) they give birth to fewer children, but the children live longer and healthier lives. There's less use of resources overall, and less wear and tear on Parental Unit Earth (not wanting to use the sexist term "Mother Earth," since I'm feeling so empowered!) :)

It's a nice cycle that would appear to help everyone involved, except apparently the right-wing groups that don't like the idea of the US giving aid to the Non-Governmental Organizations who advocate contraception (because, God forbid, they may grant access to abortion too). So the United States has cut the vast majority of women's health aid (anything that tangentially might have anything to do with the reproductive system) to NGOs since January 2001.

Yes Bob, we can't sit back and give funds to environmental charities only. But as harsh as it sounds, feeding people without educating them doesn't do any good on a global scale (and it may actually hurt if they just go on to have more children). I personally like donating to Planned Parenthood's program for International Health because it empowers women (has the moratorium on this phrase gone into effect yet?) to control their output, so to speak.

Sierra Club is not a charity, though. It doesn't qualify as a 501(c) charity under the IRS code. It is an "environmental grassroots organization" whose mission is to influence public policy to protect the environment (and organize fun little social events at the local level to keep members entertained...and it publishes some snazzy calendars too). As Sierra Club works on an anti-W agenda and helps run him out of office, the NGOs may get their funding back, and promulgate the humanitarian agenda once again. Win for the NGOs, Win for the poor people, Win for the global environment. A hat trick!

Bruce - yikes!
I am glad that I did not have to sit through a session like that!
You are going to have to find another group!
Have you ever heard about a place called "Summertime" (I think) in Tennessee? I think that is the name. It was founded by a group of hippies in the 70's. I met some people from there because they used to come into Nashville to find work. I visited their community once and it was really very interesting. They were open to meeting new people and I did not get the impression that they were brainwashed. We had a very nice time there and the kids seemed to be very happy. Allot of flowers in the hair type of thing along with dancing in the fields on Sunday. I guess people these days have not had such experiences. It seems like such a long time ago that we were all happy. The last flower type event I went to was a wedding in the late 80's.
I wonder if the TN community is still together and what they would say about the environmental issues.

My point is that people will say and do very stupid things if they are not well educated.
Like those of us who received C's at Yale.
The more well educated the people are, the more solutions that make sense have a chance to be implemented because there will be a better common understanding of the problem.

What I found interesting about the Canadian site is that they seem to be mirroring the spin of the internal American site. In light of Ken's insight to the behind the scenes this is even more interesting.
The part of the Canadian site that I also found interesting was the "charter" that they posted.
(Special Bruce disclaimer here - - before you start throwing tomatoes at me for what follows, please read all the way through. I am in no way anti-female, nor do I condone the oppression of women. as a matter of fact I support several groups that fight for these rights)

In the charter, the Sierra Club of Canada states that they promote the empowerment (Can we officially embargo that word already!) of women. They feel that this will lead to higher educational levels and economic clout for women, which in turn will result in environmental gains through lower birth rates, and sound environmental practices.
My question is...really? Have these effects been seen in any other society. For example, in most of the Western World birth rates have been decreasing, while educational, political and economic levels for women have gone up, yet at the same time the Western world has seen consumption levels also rise.
While few people would argue against improved standards for women, writing them into an environmental charter, smacks of the same type of special interest take-over as does the anti-immigration lobby in the American chapter.
This said, if anyone knows of any research that bears out the above, please let me know, it just seems like a large leap to me. And if it isn't true, isn't a group like the Sierra Club risking its reputation by promoting any alleged tie-in to the environment?

This past summer I was involved in a minor dust up with a local environmental group. The group, which I held in the highest respect had removed a few books by the same author from their book store shelves. When i asked why, I was given a list of reasons why this had happened. Most of these were of a ethical/environmental root. Being a fan of these authors, I checked into the allegations and found that all of them were unfounded. I went back to the environmental group with 5 - 7 questions thatI hoped would clarify a few things, including whether any other books were being reviewed against the same criteria (There weren't) - Anyway none of the questions were answered and the only response I got was a threatening email (what it threatened I can't say...use your imaginations). Finding myself in a lose/lose situation I agreed to back off...and was quickly invited to a "sensitivity session" sort of thing - - which still cracks people up around here.

My point is that even though you may follow a certain group they have to measured the same way you judge those groups you oppose.

I am in favor of limiting the numbers of people moving into the U.S.A. each year. I believe in a "push" back approach. I think that the places the people come from are very beautiful and could benefit from development of their own resources. I would rather go to Mexico, for example, and spend money to stay in a village than to spend tax money to support people from Mexico living in the U.S.A. on welfare. There are not enough native jobs to keep Americans in the U.S. living above the poverty level. Many children are straving and getting a poor education.

Instead of coming here, people might think of making farming and other such industries first on their list of self sustaining home grown industries.

Last year I met an organizer from southern California - can't recall his name right now but he was very well known for advocating rights for Mexican Americans. I told him that the game was not in southern California, it was in northern Mexico. Most southern Californians look for places to go - the same people who migrate to southern California could be making more money in northern Mexico in the tourist industry, the entertainment industry and the food industry. Ditto for the other countries.

Another point is that if we could lower our cost per person to bring these people in, then we would have more money and resources for in country education, health etc. that would better prepare our citizens for public service. Public service is a direct result of higher education. Everyone would benefit.

I am not against groups joining into the SC for political reasons. This is the U.S.A. after all isn't it and freedom to stay and do what ones wants is a right. Just because they are more organized doesn't make them bad. Maybe the SC should think of ways to educate them, like making them take a test before they join. Maybe they could use these lemons with water (education on natural resources) and sugar (good PR) to make lemonade?

I am also against outsourcing. It makes no sense.

Are we working more now and enjoying our lives less? Yes.

Everyone should stay home and look into their own back yards for the solution. It is more beautiful than you think.

It would be great if when you deleted a post, it would delete without having to make a post.

Ken: was that Mt Whitney? Was your partner Bob Rockwell? You mentioned this in one of your earlier posts. And thanks for the post re: the Sierra Club.

It gets a little freaky in CA. I'm not surprised by all this.

Bruce: that's a cushy explanation on the Sierra Canada site.

Terry - www.sierraclub.ca

Ken - - sorry about the turnaround, but it sounds like it was a great day in the hills regardless.

Thanks for the SC info.

Ken,
Thanks for the TR. Better luck next time.
Thanks, also, for the insights into the Sierra Club goings on.I think this might tweak an interesting debate. Bruce, perhaps you could provide the URL for the article you allude to. Lori?

I see new dispatches on EVs site. Nothing on the SI expedition.

I bet you guys could devour The Da Vinci Code. No?